tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post6911616335936651540..comments2024-03-28T03:31:42.278-07:00Comments on Chiron: Suspension of DisbeliefRoryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08483616030072739190noreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-61728072135770771612010-11-22T09:27:31.547-08:002010-11-22T09:27:31.547-08:00"Suspension of disbelief" in fiction and..."Suspension of disbelief" in fiction and in martial arts are two very different concepts.<br /> <br />In fiction, as you discuss in your post, you have to allow yourself to temporarily forget that what you are watching/reading are fake in order to enjoy the experience without constantly interrupting yourself by dwelling on the impossibility of it all.<br /> <br />In martial arts, you are right to point out that you shouldn't have to pretend it is real if you are being taught effective techniques under proper training conditions. In this context a "suspension of disbelief" is still necessary but it is a very different type than in fiction. <br /><br />Many people who are inexperienced bring with them preconceived notions of what is "real" or "effective" based on what they have "learned" watching movies or sport martial arts on tv etc. These students have a tendency to see real technique and believe it is fake or ineffective because it does not match what they expect it to be.<br /> <br />In order for many students to begin learning they must suspend that type of disbelief and be open learning real technique even if they assume that it is not going to work. A good instructor will break down the technique and show the student how and why it works so that they can verify that what they are being taught is real and that it doesn't just work by magic. Thus, after a while, the student no longer needs to keep his/her disbelief suspended because if what they are learning is real their disbelief should soon vanish to be replaced by genuine understanding. This is unlike the suspension of disbelief in fiction where, after you are done with the movie or book, you know that it was indeed fake. <br /> <br />The phase "suspension of disbelief" in martial arts may be better phrased as "letting go of preconceived notions based on inexperience."Natehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00909656965668719598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-72440612667676088692010-11-21T10:09:41.806-08:002010-11-21T10:09:41.806-08:00Hi Rory. I have a topic I need you to write about:...Hi Rory. I have a topic I need you to write about: Cazy homeless people in Portland rant about invisible people coming to get them, worms inside their veins, etc. Crazy homeless people in North Idaho rant about world currency devaluations and Obama. What is the phenomenon we're seeing here?Drew Rinellahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04643051934872137743noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-29572450856413019132010-11-21T09:35:54.593-08:002010-11-21T09:35:54.593-08:00Thanks, everyone. This has been interesting to fo...Thanks, everyone. This has been interesting to follow, and interesting to see subtle differences in how everyone defines the terms.<br /><br />Like I said, this seems so obvious that I may be too close to look at it myself, and so (though I really want to) I'm not going to question or argue any point that anyone has made here. Just let it sink in. It's what I need for this thought.<br /><br />RoryRoryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08483616030072739190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-19628946050194494162010-11-21T09:03:23.916-08:002010-11-21T09:03:23.916-08:00I like Jake's viewpoint.
Most people who sit ...I like Jake's viewpoint.<br /><br />Most people who sit down to read a book disbelieve that aliens fly into our atmosphere or that a magic wand can create tea and crumpets. Authors ask us to suspend that disbelief for the purpose of hearing a story. <br /><br />Most people who start studying martial arts probably disbelieve that they can slip a punch. But the world is full of martial artists of all stripes who can slip a punch. There is a difference between disbelief in things that are unlikely to ever become true, and disbelief in things that may become true given enough hard work and talent. <br /><br />It is completely useless (in training) to ask someone to believe something untrue that is unlikely to ever become true- predators are unlikely to ever attack me with an open, obvious, knife thrust to my abdomen.<br /><br />I think it is useful to have a realistic assessment of my abilities (as in, I am not able to slip a full-speed, determined punch to my face). But if I believe that will always be true no matter what I do, why bother training? Wouldn't it be useful, then, to temporarily suspend my disbelief pending further training and subsequent reassessment? I may get punched in the face (but I've come to believe that isn't always a bad thing :). Our teachers ask us to temporarily believe something untrue/suspend our disbelief for the purposes of training.Lisahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02626717984053044593noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-28953024369874505162010-11-21T01:58:13.143-08:002010-11-21T01:58:13.143-08:00Amen, Joshkie! (Besides, if my questions were more...Amen, Joshkie! (Besides, if my questions were more than just rhetorical, I wouldn't be seeking the answers in blogs.)<br /><br />;}Tiffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14353406161801417939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-74160140217748722962010-11-20T11:56:09.732-08:002010-11-20T11:56:09.732-08:00Yah, but Steve half the fun is looking for the ans...Yah, but Steve half the fun is looking for the answers the other half being beer and pizza. <br />:-)Josh Kruschkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288700371539530398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-73493015544562274002010-11-20T11:44:43.736-08:002010-11-20T11:44:43.736-08:00This comment has been removed by the author.Josh Kruschkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288700371539530398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-15998939388131748952010-11-20T11:13:23.124-08:002010-11-20T11:13:23.124-08:00If we want to get into Maya, the Great Illusion, t...If we want to get into Maya, the Great Illusion, the nature of what we stop-down into our more or less consensus reality, then we need to send somebody to pick up beer and pizza for the rest of the sophomores in the dorm having this discussion. <br /><br />I recall having this existentialistic argument in Professor Xenakis's Philosophy 101 class forty-odd years ago, and we aren't any more likely to come up with an answer now than we did then. <br /><br />I have little patience with this particular one. <br /><br />There's a story -- I'll keep it short. A guru and his disciple are walking when an elephant breaks loose and charges at them. The guru says "Run!" but the student, knowing that all is Maya, stands his ground.<br /><br />The elephant grabs him up, throws him against a tree, breaking his arm, then stomps off.<br /><br />The guru runs to tend the injured student. "Why didn't you run? Didn't you hear me?"<br /><br />"I heard you, but it's all an illusion, isn't it?"<br /><br />"Yes, but you and are are part of the illusion, made of the same substance. It's what we have to work with. Next time I tell you to run, then run ..."<br /><br />People who are looking for the One True Truth are apt to be disappointed. Black-or-white, either/or reality is sometimes not so easy to find. Meanwhile, you work with what you've got.<br /><br />Anything can be utter bullshit. Including Rory's comments that it can be ...Steve Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12079658447270792228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-41253114245090111632010-11-20T10:43:25.404-08:002010-11-20T10:43:25.404-08:00Maija-
Many people try to reach a similar stay as...Maija- <br />Many people try to reach a similar stay as the Piraha through meditation. They want to reach a stat of mindfulness of living in the moment. They want to break free of living in the past or for the future and to live fully in the moment. We do this naturally as children, but for some reason grow out if it as adults. Maybe what the Piraha show us is that we to can live in the moment and not let the pressures of society dictate to us any differently. The Piraha seem to have a culture that values this. <br /><br />Thank you I know have another piece of the puzzle to look into.<br /><br />JoshJosh Kruschkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288700371539530398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-85026959619396356772010-11-20T07:26:48.870-08:002010-11-20T07:26:48.870-08:00Tiff -
Check out the 'Piraha' tribe of the...Tiff -<br />Check out the 'Piraha' tribe of the Amazon for another view on truth vs fiction.<br /><br />Quote:<br />"They have no craving for truth as a transcendental reality. Indeed, the concept has no place in their values. Truth to the Pirahãs is catching a fish, rowing a canoe, laughing with your children, loving your brother, dying of malaria. Does this make them more primitive? Many anthropologists have suggested so, which is why they are so concerned about finding out the Pirahãs notions about God, the world, and creation.<br />But there is an interesting alternative to think about things. Perhaps it is their presence of these concerns that makes a culture more primitive, and their absense that renders a culture more sophisticated. If that is true, the Pirahãs are a very sophisticated people. Does this sound far-fetched? Let's ask ourselves if it is more sophisticated to look at the universe with worry, concern, and a believe that we can understand it all, or to enjoy life as it comes, recognizing the likely futility of looking for truth or God?"<br />— Daniel L. Everett (Don't Sleep, There Are Snakes: Life and Language in the Amazonian Jungle)Maijahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18264657619197571965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-44445668761030017832010-11-20T01:08:24.640-08:002010-11-20T01:08:24.640-08:00Steve-
I see where your coming from. To elaborat...Steve-<br /><br />I see where your coming from. To elaborate on the supposition that fiction succeeds when it doesn't appear to be fiction, it would have to (1) play and expand upon the reader's biases or assumptions of what is truth or reality or (2) convince the reader that the story and its characters are possible, though they may not exist currently. <br /><br />That train of thought led me to think about the correlation to martial arts. At what point does the student discern fiction from non-fiction? Can I ever trust the teacher when the teacher is not me? Can I ever trust my own skill, experience, or training? Even in Meditations on Violence, Rory expounds upon the (frightening) notion that our experience can be an inaccurate anomaly, or our training can be utter bullshit. Rory even refers to the "story" that we tell ourselves -- the fictional narrative we kill (or die) to defend. It's just an illusion, but we cling to it and convince ourselves it's real.<br /><br />And so I ponder: When is it not fiction? And do we ever really know?Tiffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14353406161801417939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-55801912471291540512010-11-19T09:38:41.096-08:002010-11-19T09:38:41.096-08:00Tiff --
Since by definition, fiction is the depic...Tiff --<br /><br />Since by definition, fiction is the depiction of imaginary events or people, you certainly do depend on the suspension of disbelief. You might not people it with Klingons or elves, nor set it on other worlds, but by offering it, you say, "Hey, I made this up. Go with it, okay?" <br /><br />Every time.<br /><br />Research to get the stuff that is real down is great, the ring of truth sells it, but it's still a made-up story.Steve Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12079658447270792228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-9089589824478212742010-11-19T07:53:16.484-08:002010-11-19T07:53:16.484-08:00I like Anon's jigsaw puzzle analogy. Suspinsi...I like Anon's jigsaw puzzle analogy. Suspinsion of disbelief is take your instructors word that it is correct. The instructor/ teacher should be able to give you atleast the principle or reason why it is done that way. If s/he can do that then there is no reason to suspend belief you ether do or you don't. If you don't you as the student better have a reason or principle for why you don't. If a instructor can't explain the why of something then s/he's not teaching you; they're indoctrinating you. They could have good or bad motives, but they're not teaching you. Back to the jigsaw puzzle, I like having all the pieces (access or permision to find the answer) so when I go oh that's where that piece goes I can build a bigger picture. And Sometimes I just like to think outside the box the puzzle came in. <br /><br />JoshJosh Kruschkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288700371539530398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-4308920469202767252010-11-19T07:40:45.542-08:002010-11-19T07:40:45.542-08:00A beginner does not know what they don't know....A beginner does not know what they don't know. In fact they probably believe stuff that is not true on top of that. They may have an idea what the 'goal' looks like, but they may not. <br />OTOH the teacher should always have the goal in mind, and through experience have put the pieces together that lead to this goal - thus a system or a method. <br />It may be a confusing path for the student sometimes, I know I left plenty of lessons with my Eskrima teacher not knowing what had happened or whether or not I had learned anything .... but I knew HE knew, and he was always willing to physically demonstrate, and/or explain the 'WHY' of everything we did ... along with the why not, the when, the how, the pros and the cons. THAT was key to my trust in him - all those demonstrations/explanations made sense. That, and the fact the other people with way more real life experience than me thought he was very highly skilled.<br />He chose to teach the way he did because he thought it was the most efficient, the best and fastest way to get to the goal he wanted the student to get to. His biggest gripe with more traditional ways of teaching was that they went 1 or 2 steps back for every 2 steps they took forward ... or worse! His personal goal was to find the LEAST steps needed to make the student proficient ... and these steps, though similar, turned out to be different for each student depending on personality and skill.<br />I never had to suspend belief, or disbelief, but I certainly had no idea where I was going, or if I was going anywhere at all, for quite a while.<br />Once I was immersed in it for a time, and started to better understand the problems that had to be solved, I started to ask better questions and finally began to 'see'.<br />He did not really teach a system to pass on, he taught his students to see the problem to be solved. He felt that if you understood the problem, the material spoke for itself. So yeah, there was, in the end, nothing to 'believe'.Maijahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18264657619197571965noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-85489421759724169902010-11-19T05:56:42.545-08:002010-11-19T05:56:42.545-08:00what an excellent and interesting post. but i do a...what an excellent and interesting post. but i do agree a certain amount suspension of disbelief is required when starting something new. trying to understand the entire context can be overwhelming initially, like trying to put all the pieces of a jigsaw together in one go.<br /><br />it was described by one of our top instructors (someone i think rory would find very interesting) as like learning to draw. in your first class, you draw a smiley face, just a circle, two dots and bendy line. once you have mastered that, you move on to trying to get the shape of the circle correct. a real face is more oval. then you might make the dots into circles, and then later into tear shapes and so on and so on, until you have a realistic drawing of a face.<br /><br />the first stage is simply learning the mechanics of body movement and coordination. the only reason to give some context at this stage is simply to keep the students inspired, so they know that there is a purpose to what appear to be 'unrealistic' movements.<br /><br />another point is that in karate at least, movements and actions are stylized and exaggerated in order to compensate for the adrenalized state when under pressure. musicians do the same thing when learning to play an instrument.<br /><br />the above mentioned instructor was giving seminars in 'fighting' kata. turning the kata people had been assiduously learning into proper fighting/SD principles. it looked like brawling most of the time - really ugly - but you should have seen the lights going on around the room. suddenly everyone 'got it'. they understood and could do it from one moment to the next. but they could never have achieved that level of understanding without having practiced the kata and associated kihon 1000's of times beforehand, even if it meant they didn't understand 100% what was they were supposed to be doing it for.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-91012314637117484122010-11-19T04:11:16.086-08:002010-11-19T04:11:16.086-08:00Afterthought: Does doing so make fiction more bel...Afterthought: Does doing so make fiction more believable, or does it make non-fiction LESS believable?Tiffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14353406161801417939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-24234289042109840982010-11-19T04:08:40.181-08:002010-11-19T04:08:40.181-08:00I really like the responses to this one -- all of ...I really like the responses to this one -- all of 'em.<br /><br />Now for a wrench in the gears.<br /><br />When I write fiction, I don't rely on "suspension of disbelief." I DO interview sources, I DO my research. I do everything in my power to avoid "suspension of disbelief," because I think fiction is best the less it looks like fiction.Tiffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14353406161801417939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-76397880277613506702010-11-18T22:15:05.757-08:002010-11-18T22:15:05.757-08:00Belief and disbelief have no place in training. &...Belief and disbelief have no place in training. "Just shut up and do it" --now that's an important training tool! <br />Christianity is deeply concerned with belief and tends to frame everything around the importance of believing. But belief is not important out side of that worldview. <br />But I believe most teaching is a "head-fake." If you want to get people to think differently you have to do things to break them out of the way they see the world. "Pretending" for a moment or a week or even a year, can set someone up for a dramatic shift in consciousness.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04771944484286659825noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-44556110978351497062010-11-18T15:04:31.329-08:002010-11-18T15:04:31.329-08:00Hmm. From a writer's standpoint, "suspens...Hmm. From a writer's standpoint, "suspension of disbelief" means that you are offering something that the reader won't buy as real. S/he, in order to go with the story, accepts this. Easy example -- spaceships with artificial gravity and faster-than-light drives.<br /><br />There are no such beasts. But if you are going to get into the stories of, say, Star Wars, or Harry Potter, you have to go along with this fiction (as well as some other real howlers.)<br /><br />For those of you not science fiction or fantasy fans, these books or movies with aliens and trolls and dragons and such get quite far-fetched. You suspend your disbelief to go with the story.<br /><br />It is, at its heart, "Let's pretend!" and part of the fun.<br /><br />This suspension has less use when dealing with consensus reality, though there are times. Maybe in protecting somebody fragile from hard news -- Where is Mommy? when Mommy doesn't make it after a car wreck. In the end truth must be served, but in the interim, sometimes that might be delayed. <br /><br />There might be folks who will flat-out tell a five-year-old that Mommy is dead meat in a box buried in the cold ground. I'm not one of them.Steve Perryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12079658447270792228noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-63981136661152047542010-11-18T14:24:04.682-08:002010-11-18T14:24:04.682-08:00She said, "Beginning training requires a cert...She said, "Beginning training requires a certain amount of suspension of disbelief."<br /><br />There was nothing in that statement about the training activities and beliefs one adopted and practised after a couple of years.<br /><br />Mr. Miller, you are at or very near the top of your profession. One that forces you to act violently. <br /><br />When it comes to violence, you should not suspend your disbelief. I think we can all agree this would end badly.<br /><br />But beginners are often full of fantasies. They also have ignorant and foolish opinions.<br /><br />That is often the hardest part of training them. Getting rid of bad ideas and replacing them with good reflexes and a savvy attitude. <br /><br />This takes time and a willingness to work hard.<br /><br />It also takes an absolute willingness to Suspend their Disbelief that the instructor's violent responses are both legally and ethically justified.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-30011263905543173272010-11-18T12:23:24.139-08:002010-11-18T12:23:24.139-08:00It's the suspension of BElief that allows the ...It's the suspension of BElief that allows the direct cognition of the possibilities and the innate (in humans) ability to produce a good effect and positive experience from even the worst of information. On the flip side, there is such a thing as a waste of time, but this is needs driven, not information-derivedMacnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-15523410667623197032010-11-18T09:45:07.383-08:002010-11-18T09:45:07.383-08:00Why is every one looking at this from the students...Why is every one looking at this from the students point of view. I think what Rory was getting at was that those that teach need to have faith in their students that if they are asking the question they are ready and deserving of an answer. If the teacher doesn't have one then this maybe a learning moment for both of them. I believe that anything that can't be tought to a beginner is probable to complicated to be of use in a real SD encounter, because of the degradation of skills do to stress. Teachers unwilling to answers students question do it for two reasons. One ego don't want to seem week by not to have the answer, or Two just being lazy. Let the student receiving the answer determen if it is useful to them and if they are ready for it. If you don't give them a strong base of knowledge to make disision from. <br /><br />If a teacher want answer my questions it makes me question there motives and if I should continue.<br /><br />Rory please correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding of the purpose of this post. <br /><br />JoshJosh Kruschkehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09288700371539530398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-1209164059545032732010-11-18T09:20:33.169-08:002010-11-18T09:20:33.169-08:00To continue the soup metaphor...
I certainly woul...To continue the soup metaphor...<br /><br />I certainly wouldn't just go out and buy a bunch of vegetables and go cut them all up at someone's direction, if I wasn't told we were making soup. <br /><br />On the other hand, (and maybe this is more to the post's original point), I also definitely wouldn't go out and pull weeds for someone who told me it was a good way to make a salad. <br /><br />-Billy G.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-43175952928723206642010-11-18T07:14:20.931-08:002010-11-18T07:14:20.931-08:00I think the choice of words was where things went ...I think the choice of words was where things went wrong there... She should have explained why these drills would be useful in real word situation instead of just tell u to suspend your belief.. Just like the engineering bit..sure u don't see why u need to learn stuff but a teacher should when asked give u at least one example where it could be applied for a real situation..otherwise its rather condescending on their part and/or lack real depth of understanding of what they are teaching...angelheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06620450181218142682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-14473417.post-85974157652600116322010-11-18T07:06:15.441-08:002010-11-18T07:06:15.441-08:00Rory,
I'm curious, what's the drill you w...Rory,<br /><br />I'm curious, what's the drill you wouldn't do?Andynoreply@blogger.com